Looks like this was all new information to many people (referring to my previous post) after watching my friend Adam Glass’ video here. Here’s one from Bill.
“OK, I’m trying to get it here. A simple comparative toe touch looking at ROM after doing certain selected exercises/drills will tell me which of those drills (e.g. KB press, DB press, bar press) will give me the best result(s) not only for training that day, but will have the biggest longitudinal (over time) payoff for my general pressing strength irrespective of implement used? My pressing strength with all 3 of these tools will increase? (maybe not equally, or even proportionately, but all 3 will improve better than with other methodologies, such as Bill Starr’s 5X5, or Jim Wendler’s 5/3/1?) If so, how do I know the appropriate test to determine the best implement/drill to select for working on say, DL strength, or pressing strength? Toe touch or arms overhead, ROM to ears, or behind ears, etc.? I’m not trying to be an asshole here, just trying to understand, and as I’m sure you understand what you are presenting here is a complete paradigm shift. I’m trying to see this free and clear of the things I’ve “learned” over a lifetime of working out/lifting, etc. and this is a BIG change. Thanks, Bill.”
You have some great questions here Bill. And I’m sure you’re not the only one. And I’ll take them one at a time.
The Toe Touch ROM Test
A simple comparative toe touch looking at ROM after doing certain selected exercises/drills will tell me which of those drills (e.g. KB press, DB press, bar press) will give me the best result(s) not only for training that day, but will have the biggest longitudinal (over time) payoff for my general pressing strength irrespective of implement used?
Yes. In my experience I’ve been working on the double kettlebell press recently. If that tests well I may just go with it. Or I may decide to test barbell presses, or single kettlebell presses to see if any of them test better. If they do I go with that exercise for the day. When pressing in any form doesn’t test well I don’t press.
My pressing strength with all 3 of these tools will increase? (maybe not equally, or even proportionately, but all 3 will improve better than with other methodologies, such as Bill Starr’s 5X5, or Jim Wendler’s 5/3/1?)
Yes. Pressing however you do it should improve all pressing even if there isn’t 100% carryover between tools. The idea is to listen to your body rather than force a program onto it.
If so, how do I know the appropriate test to determine the best implement/drill to select for working on say, DL strength, or pressing strength? Toe touch or arms overhead, ROM to ears, or behind ears, etc.?
If I am not mistaken it does not matter which test you use as long as you compare it to the same test done in the same way. I’ve been exclusively using the toe touch now for sometime. And as stated in Adam’s video you’re not stretching but testing your ROM until you feel tension.
I’m not trying to be an asshole here, just trying to understand, and as I’m sure you understand what you are presenting here is a complete paradigm shift. I’m trying to see this free and clear of the things I’ve “learned” over a lifetime of working out/lifting, etc. and this is a BIG change.
I agree that these concepts to represent a paradigm shift. Every once in awhile something comes along that changes the game. Is this one of them? Its too early for me to say for sure. However, results so far have been good.
Imagine if your body could tell you exactly how you should be training in order to improve. It makes sense that you should listen to it rather than try to force it into your plan.
And if you did listen, what would that mean? It would mean faster improvement. In fact, the idea is to hit a PR in one form or another every single time you train. Plus, instead of forcing a movement to the point of collapse, or a movement unnatural to your body, your body is much less likely to suffer injuries or nagging pain.
Based on the idea that it might be that good I’m going full bore into it. Next month I’ll be attending the (very) limited certification by its creator and all the top people. So I’ll have much more to report soon 🙂
Until then if you haven’t be sure to check out the videos available here.
There is no reason you can’t get started right away.
In strength,
Logan Christopher
P.S. I want more feedback. Leave your comments and questions here.
Comments
Great Q&A Logan. Thank you for doing this.
Sounds awesome, and awesome way for people to have a grasp of what we’re trying to do!
Not too quick Logan.
Biofeedback is nothing new. Gym Movement is new, BF is not.
I’m going to keep my word to Frankie Fairies and not pose the questions
I’ve posed to him to you and others YET.
I’ve studied this before and I’m really studying it deeper now.
In my opinion, there’s TONS more questions to be answered. Many more PROPER
tests to be done that don’t suggest outcomes, etc.
Technically, no biofeedback is being done here. You’ll see later. Promise!
More later after I hear from Frankie Fairies and not until then. I haven’t heard from
him yet but there’s no rush on my part.
@Mighty Joe: Very interesting Joe. I never said biofeedback was new but this approach to training is, or at least I’ve never seen anything like it.
I too still have tons of questions to be answered, but it seems you agree this is something worth exploring. I’m looking forward to your research so be sure to keep me posted.
-Logan
@Logan:
Logan, you’ll soon see why I’m exploring supposedly Biofeedback. I will say this, I would rather keep a detailed training log than spend time in my training with BF. Like I said before
I wont elaborate until I get answers to some questions I posed to Frankie. I believe in going to the source when something is in question. Frankie is not the source of BF, he’s the one pushing (selling) Gym Movement and calling it BF.
One last thing, I PR every single workout. Sometimes double or even triple my last session.
All without BF. You can too. When I post some videos on You Tube everyone’s thinking will change. Stay tuned and keep on testing, but test what you’re NOT being told to test. Remember, QUESTION EVERYTHING, right???
@Mighty Joe: If you go through Adam’s blog and check some of the comments, all of the serious people do keep a training log, with the admonission that if you didn’t write it down, you didn’t do it. My question for you is: “How do you train?” That’s what these guys are putting out there (and yeah, selling, but that’s their living after all).
Just to say, I’m beginning my journey into strength training and fitness- Adam’s methodologies appeal due to the lack of soreness (I have a physical job where soreness is bad to have), and the overall successes. Given your personal successes, again, I’m wondering how you train, to see if there’s something that appeals/is applicable to myself.
I am interested in what your questions/concerns to Mr. Faires are, but instead of ‘stay tuned’, I’d rather see a compare/contrast with how you made yourself successful (and your clients? Not sure if you are a pro-trainer or not). Again, I’m not doubting your successes and results at all, I’m just wondering what your methodology is- and I’m especially wondering what the research you have is- even in a generalized format, since we could then compare/contrast/learn while you have your discussion with Mr. Faires.
@Christopher:
Christopher, your questions are fair enough.
The reason for the “stay tuned” is because I’m not ready at this point
to prsent my case. Is this fair enough?
I will post my findings on my blog along with a couple of YT videos.
If by “pro trainer” you mean do I make a living training others? The answer
would be NO. I have helped hundreds of people reach their goals but I’ve never
charged anyone. That’s just me. I LOVE helping others, period!
For the record here. I’m not saying it’s bad to sell something and yes the guys promoting
GM/BF make a living selling things, no problem. Now, what I have a problem with is when
someone selling something is not willing to withstand criticism of said product. I will not name names but they know who they are. When someone tells me to “question everything” and then turns right around and refuses to answer some questions on said product, YES, I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT! This strongly implies to me that there’s something(s) not being told here. I now know why and this is what I’m going to show very soon.
Also for the record, I have nothing personal against proponets of GM/BF. It’s the concept.
Here’s something to think about while I continue my testing and research. The main thing I hear from those of GM/BF is “how do you explain all the results people are getting with GM/BF if it’s flawed”? people are getting results everyday without GM/BF also. Myself included. I PR every workout if I go by what you guys are calling PR’s. Anyone can!
Now for a simple test. What if a subject doesn’t test good for a given movement but said subject goes ahead anyway with said movement and PR’s anyway. What would this mean? I wouldn’t be too quick to answer either. And yes, I’ve tested it with unbiased subjects without any suggestion of outcomes (this is how to test a concept properly by the way).
Give that some thought and check back at blog periodically for more posts.
Stay Strong and thanks for the questions!
Logan well done
Joe true science occurs as we work to disprove an idea. Continue on, but keep note of the incredible progress being made . To say what we do is not new – OK who else is making these gains? Would you agree I am advanced in my practice of grip and kbs? Is it interesting to you the speed of progress occurring? I would not want you to chase your tail too long here
Good Q&A Logan.
I am practicing this method right now and it is beginning to come together little by little, but there is more to be tested and learned for myself for sure. Keep the articles coming!
Glad to hear it Doug. Gonna have to come up to your gym soon after my travels.
-Logan
@Doug:
Adam, don’t cut yourself short too quick.
I’m one of the few who has taken notes on your progress. You would
and everyone else can PR without BF. After I hear from Frankie I’ll throw
some research your way and I promise you’ll start over. Guaranteed!
Stay tuned my friend.
BTW Adam, to answer your question. I have the utmost respect for
you, your strength, and your knowledge of training and yes I believe
you have some of the strongest hands out there. Remember one before you
accuse me of chasing my tale, proponents of Biofeedback encourage you to
question everything. I’m seeing now that this is fine as long as you don’t question
Biofeedback. This is what your response relayed to me. Rewatch your last video with
keen eyes and ears and then I’ll drop some questions on you AFTER I hear back from
Frankie.
Well, Joe, you’ve got my attention.
Where will you be posting your information once you receive your answers from Frankie?
@Dave Sandel:
Hi Dave!
Here ya go: https://musselwhitepapers.blogspot.com/
Stay tuned!!!
I have seen many comments posted by the advocates and critics of biofeedback. This response is targeted more toward the critics. After several years of training 5×5, 5/3/1, singles, etc. I had developed many nagging injuries and pains. Several months ago, I saw videos on Adam’s site for GM. I quickly dismissed this, and subscribed to the same logic as many others. As long as I had followed Adam’s blog he has made incredible progress. That was my reason for not trying it. A few months later, I kept seeing videos and now Josh Hanagarne and a few others were making incredible progress. They were also reporting relief from nagging injuries. At this point something hit me. What is the problem with trying GM? Why was I so set on doing thing the way I always had. I then thought of a story I read in college called The Lottery (in my mind it fits the this situation) If GM didn’t work after a month, I would go back to the old way. No harm, no foul. I tried it for a month and was seeing some good gains, but not quite like I thought I would. I contacted Frankie Faires. I was heading to TX in a few weeks, and wondered if he would answer some questions I had. He agreed, and was very helpful and generous with his time. After 40 minutes with Frankie, I realized the reason the reason for my sub-maximal progress (which incidentally was still better than my progress the old way) was due to user error. Since that time I have seen explosive gains. My hands no longer hurt, and I move and feel way better.
I have seen many posts on many forums asking for scientific proof on the efficacy of GM. I have also seen people disputing it due to the fact that it goes against their science. The only research I have on GM is 1 case study…and it’s mine. I do not have control groups, and have not run any statistical tests. However, I can tell you I’m getting stronger and I feel and move better. I don’t know how it works. I don’t have a clue. Frankie told me I could do any ROM test because there is a mechanism that regulates it all. I don’t know what that mechanism is, and I don’t have to know either. I do know that it works….period. I am horrible at fixing cars, and could not tell you the science of how my car runs. However, I do know that when I put my key in and turn it, the car starts. I feel like I don’t need to know much more than that. If I stood over my car and had to figure out how it worked before I could drive it…well, I would be walking everywhere.
@Chris: Very good Chris. I think you hit the nail on the head with ‘User Error’. The testing seems easy to do but there is a lot you can do wrong with it.
@Chris:
Chris, I missed your post when I replied to Christopher’s.
I can’t help but comment on your “car analogy” At first read most people
would find your analogy convincing but there’s something you left out.
You are correct in saying that you don’t have to understand how your car works
in order to get in it and drive it. Just like you don’t have to understand how a computer
works in order to use it.
Now, here’s what you left out. How a car works can be explained and tested. Questions can be asked and through the use of science, explanations can be given. With GM/BF it doesn’t matter if it can be explained, it just works. Not a good analogy.
People tend very strongly to test only positive examples of their experiments. They don’t try and falsify their experiments. I do and I did with GM. In science the value of negative findings cannot be overemphasied. Most people rationalize or ignore negative findings.
I think this is an important step at getting to the truth of any claim.
For example, I’ve talked with numerous individuals experimenting with GM/BF and I’ve asked them how they have tested GM/BF. All have said that they followed the protocol as
taught and have not tested outside of those protocols. Now with this in mind, here’s what’s happening based on my observations/testing. A subject follows instructions given to them and performs a ROM baseline test followed up by a potential movement for said workout. Then another ROM test (same one) is performed to determine if said movement/exercise test well or not. If it doesn’t test well the said movement/exercise is not done. Why? Because it’s assumed that there’s a connection between a given movement being beneficial based on a ROM test. I have not seen or heard any evidence for this connection. Further, I took the testing a step further (outside of said protocols). I went ahead and performed said movement even though it didn’t test well and I PR’d anyway. In some instances big PR’s. I considered myself biased because I knew ahead of time what to expect so I did the same test to 3 different individuals without suggesting any outcomes, nor did I explain why I was testing. This helps rule out the power of suggestion and other psychological factors going on if subject knows otherwise.
NOW! The BIG Question: If a said movement does NOT test well but said subject proceeds to PR on said movement, what would this mean for the claims of Gym Movement/Biofeedback?
I’m not going to suggest ananswer because I want to hear an explanation from someone that is a proponent of this system. NO ONE has given me an explanation to date.
One last thing. One of the central elements to GM/BF is “QUESTION EVERYTHING”. Based
on the feedback I’ve been getting it should be changed to “QUESTION EVERYTHING EXCEPT
GYM MOVEMENT/BIOFEEDBACK”. Not trying to be a smart a** either. Just an honest observation.
I encourage questions. Please send them to [email protected]
Thanks for your time!
@Mighty Joe: “If a said movement does NOT test well but said subject proceeds to PR on said movement, what would this mean for the claims of Gym Movement/Biofeedback?” I believe Frankie answered this on one of his videos. He said in the best case you could still set a new PR. Or you may end up not setting a new PR. At worse you could injure yourself. Lack of a movement testing well doesn’t automatically mean complete failure but is there to point you in the optimal direction.
“It’s assumed that there’s a connection between a given movement being beneficial based on a ROM test. I have not seen or heard any evidence for this connection.” I don’t claim to have scientific proof, at least not yet. But again, the ROM increase coincided with the results from a strength test. The thing is ROM tests are easy to do by yourself, hence it being the favored method of testing.
A question for you Joe. When you set those PR’s even after the exercise not testing well was it easy or was it hard work?
I with you on questioning everything including this method. I’ve still got many questions myself.
-Logan
Logan, based on what you’ve said then ROM could or could not be correct if
you do well on said movement? If this is the case, please say so. This is not what
I’ve been reading or hearing on videos. Please point me to the video where Frankie explains this.
To answer your question to me: 2 times the PR after not testing well felt no different
than any of my other workouts BUT I was not particularly paying attention to the degree
of difficulty (how hard or easy it felt). This is something I will pay attention to in my future
testing. I will let you know future results.
Thanks for your question.
NEWS FLASH!
Just wanted to share the fact that Adam Glass answered some of my concerns
with Gym Movement and gave me some suggestions that I had not previously considered.
I’m going to incorporate what he shared with me into my training beginning today.
I will give you guys an update if you’re interested.
I must say Adam has encyclopidiac knowledge when it comes to strength training.
I’m making some adjustments, corrections and moving forward.
I apologize to anyone who may have been offended by any of my comments.
I should have stated them in a more positive manner.
Interesting thread of comments. Personally I think Adam is on to something. That being said everything Might Joe brought up is good food for thought as well.
And the next question would be what if I could “override” my bodys’ response to the testing? It may be possible. Then I could PR every time with what ever lift I wanted to do.
Great site Logan. Have been looking at it off and on all day!
Bill Jones